Pet Site vs SIM Site

[Frivi]

Well since most of Gabby's quotes are coming from my forum (and I think from my posts, actually xD), I feel I should come out of lurking long enough to clarify.

Loomi has essentially hit it on the head. Personally I believe VPS (virtual pet sites) and Sim games are both underneath the umbrella genre of Persistent Browser-Based Games (there's much discussion of PBBGs online, if one Googles). I don't think there's a huge difference between them at all -- in fact there are many games that could be considered either one, and they've been discussed often on PSU. As Loomi said, it's not a question of how they function, but their basis -- a sim game is trying its best to simulate reality, a pet site is not.

I don't think that makes either version better than the other. Cpvr and I have had discussions before about common methods of raising money for sim games, and he's made it very clear that he doesn't agree with them, which is fine. But to make a blanket statement that sim owners are out to get money, and to then in the same topic stress that sim games are less popular and poorly marketed shows an expert command of conflicting logic. If sim owners were out to get money, and pet sites are arguably the bigger money makers on the web (that fact is very clear), wouldn't we be developing pet sites instead? What's the motivation for developing a sim game if all you want to do is make money? Not much, I can tell you from experience xD

Sim games tend to be smaller not because they are somehow poorer quality, I think, but because it is a far more niche genre than pet sites. Pet sites naturally encompass a broader audience than the highly specific goals and themes of simulation games. Interestingly, the small community is one of the things almost every sim game player cites as one of their number one desired features in our games. We have many discussions about how to balance the need to bring in more users with the need to maintain the "small town" feel.

The longer I'm involved in this industry the less the distinction seems important xD I think the reason the debate continues to happen is because there are a group of players who are very much attached to sim games and sim games only, and being able to explain what that is, and define a separate place for ourselves, helps us come together as a community. We're a very interconnected and tight-knit group for the most part (as are many of you who are involved in pet sites), and having an identity is important in that regard.

But honestly I don't understand why sim games trying to define themselves is such an inflammatory topic *shrugs*

[cpvr]

@Frivi

But to make a blanket statement that sim owners are out to get money, and to then in the same topic stress that sim games are less popular and poorly marketed shows an expert command of conflicting logic. If sim owners were out to get money, and pet sites are arguably the bigger money makers on the web (that fact is very clear), wouldn't we be developing pet sites instead? What's the motivation for developing a sim game if all you want to do is make money? Not much, I can tell you from experience xD

I actually should have changed the wording on that post actually - All game owners want to make money from their games, that's correct. Marketing is a whole new level though - when was the last time you've seen a SIM game advertising through FB, project wonderful, or anywhere else? Most advertise on your site, and maybe a few forums here and there. And also, what are the main features behind a SIM game that actually keeps people coming back? I'm curious about that one.

I don't think that makes either version better than the other. Cpvr and I have had discussions before about common methods of raising money for sim games, and he's made it very clear that he doesn't agree with them, which is fine

I disagree on the part of "paying for an account" in order to test the site while its in development. It's a good idea for you, and other SIM game owners, but it wouldn't work on a pet site[at least I don't think so].

Loomi has essentially hit it on the head. Personally I believe VPS (virtual pet sites) and Sim games are both underneath the umbrella genre of Persistent Browser-Based Games (there's much discussion of PBBGs online, if one Googles). I don't think there's a huge difference between them at all -- in fact there are many games that could be considered either one, and they've been discussed often on PSU. As Loomi said, it's not a question of how they function, but their basis -- a sim game is trying its best to simulate reality, a pet site is not.

Good example - but see the definition of a "virtual world".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_world

A virtual world is an online community that takes the form of a computer-based simulated environment through which users can interact with one another and use and create objects.[1] The term has become largely synonymous with interactive 3D virtual environments, where the users take the form of avatars visible to others.[2] These avatars usually appear as textual, two-dimensional, or three-dimensional representations, although other forms are possible (auditory and touch sensations for example).[3][4] In general, virtual worlds allow for multiple users.
The computer accesses a computer-simulated world and presents perceptual stimuli to the user, who in turn can manipulate elements of the modeled world and thus experience a degree of telepresence.[5] Such modeled worlds and their rules may draw from the reality or fantasy worlds. Example rules are gravity, topography, locomotion, real-time actions, and communication. Communication between users can range from text, graphical icons, visual gesture, sound, and rarely, forms using touch, voice command, and balance senses.
Massively multiplayer online games depict a wide range of worlds, including those based on fantasy, science fiction, the real world, super heroes, sports, horror, and historical milieus. The most common form of such games are fantasy worlds, whereas those based on the real world are relatively rare.[6] Many MMORPGs have real-time actions and communication. Players create a character who travels between buildings, towns, and worlds to carry out business or leisure activities. Communication is usually textual, but real-time voice communication is also possible. The form of communication used can substantially affect the experience of players in the game.[7]
Virtual worlds are not limited to games but, depending on the degree of immediacy presented, can encompass computer conferencing and text based chatrooms. Sometimes, emoticons or 'smilies' are available, to show feeling or facial expression. Emoticons often have a keyboard shortcut.[8] Edward Castronova is an economist who has argued that "synthetic worlds" is a better term for these cyberspaces, but this term has not been widely adopted.

These games are "Virtual worlds" because you adopt a pet, explore the world, or create a human avatar, dress it up, things like that.


And plus

Personally I believe VPS (virtual pet sites) and Sim games are both underneath the umbrella genre of Persistent Browser-Based Games (there's much discussion of PBBGs online, if one Googles).

That whole "name" PPBG for the online games was started by the owner(Aaron) of Topwebgames - that's the only reason its out there. But since you didn't post the definition, I'll do it for you http://www.pbbg.org/

What is a PBBG?

The PBBG definition is quite broad. The PBBG genre encompasses games of all traditional genres: role-playing, strategy, sports, simulation, and so forth.

PBBGs may be single-, multi-, or massively multi-player games. However, since an Internet connection is required to play, most developers incorporate massively multi-player and community elements into their PBBGs. A multi-player PBBG can be referred to as a MPBBG, but multi-player game play is usually assumed.

PBBGs may be text-based, or they may take advantage of browser plug-ins such as Flash or Java to create a more dynamic game play environment.

The PBBG definition is device-independent. In particular, a persistent game played within the web browser of a cell phone or other wireless device is still a PBBG. Such a game may be referred to as a mobile-enabled PBBG.

What is not a PBBG?

A PBBG is not the same thing as a MMOG (massively multi-player online game), generally speaking. There is some overlap, but MMOGs include games that are run as an application on your computer. Application-based games do not have the portability that PBBGs do, because you can only play them on a computer that has the game installed. Think of PBBGs as a subset of MMOGs -- those that are browser-based.

A PBBG is also not the same thing as a browser-based game, generally speaking. Browser-based games include arcade, puzzle, and poker games which are over as soon as you move your browser to a different web page. These games lack the longevity of PBBGs, where progress is made over days, weeks, or months. PBBGs are a subset of browser-based games -- they are persistent browser-based games.

If sim owners were out to get money, and pet sites are arguably the bigger money makers on the web (that fact is very clear), wouldn't we be developing pet sites instead? What's the motivation for developing a sim game if all you want to do is make money? Not much, I can tell you from experience xD

Not sure, why don't you answer that for us? Pet sites do make more than SIM games because of the cash options, and advertisements that some sites use. How does a SIM game generate money actually]besides selling accounts]? Does it have a cash shop option?


So, since the definition of Virtual world and PBBG is up there - which category does everyone think both games under?

[Loomi]

I actually should have changed the wording on that post actually - All game owners want to make money from their games, that's correct. Marketing is a whole new level though - when was the last time you've seen a SIM game advertising through FB, project wonderful, or anywhere else? Most advertise on your site, and maybe a few forums here and there.

Cpvr, almost all simulation games have a Facebook account and Twitter account.

[Frivi]

Oh there are many sims that could increase marketing efforts, but I think it's a bit of a generalization to say that ALL sims are bad at marketing compared to pet sites. I'm sure there are just as many pet sites that need some marketing help. There are many sims that are currently using social media campaigns, magazine ads, etc.

Most players get hooked on sim games because of the work that goes into developing their animals (pets). For example, on Furry-Paws it takes over 100 days of daily care, show entering, etc. to be able to compete with your dogs' stats, then careful calculations of those stats to determine the best breeding partners for the most high-quality offspring. The dogs that are on top of the leader boards are those that come from long-standing players who have bred their dogs for several generations. The better you are at strategizing feeding, special items, breeding, etc., the better your dogs will be. That is the core of most sim games, but I can't tell you any more specific features than that, because every sim is different beyond that central goal.

I don't want to re-hash our old arguments on alpha accounts, since that's not the point of this topic, but I will say again that the alpha account system is not about paying to test, it's about offering up-front support for a game in development in the same way an investor would.

I'm a bit confused about your point on virtual worlds -- I never said sim games are not virtual worlds, and I don't think anyone else is, either xD Both sim games and pet sites would fall under the virtual worlds category.

I can't answer for all sim owners of course, but in my case I wanted to build a sim because I am so impressed with the sim gaming community, and I had an idea that I wanted to make a reality. My game is even more of a niche game than most, but I enjoy putting it out there for those who want to play. Most sims operate on a subscription basis for account benefits, and some do have "cash shops", but other forms of income have been cropping up as well recently.

My point was not that sim owners DON'T want to make money. An owner who says they don't want their site to at least pay for itself is lying. My point was that we're obviously not as money-hungry as some would suggest (though I still can't figure out where that impression came from), or we wouldn't put so much effort into a type of game that is harder to build and market.

[Avalanche]

@cpvr - you're still missing what I'm saying. I'm not saying ALL sim games that contain pets are petsites, I'm saying that petsites are a SUB genre of sim games. Sim games include a very large variety of games. They're not two different genre's, one is a sub genre of the other. There are no outlines as to what defines a Non-petsite sim game vs. a petsite game, and many of them still have similar features, similar user bases etc. I started on Horseland. Where we had images for out horses(pets), and we could show them, train them, breed them, play games, abandon some, adopt others, post on a message board, customize our profiles, PM other users, make trades, buy items such as food, equipment, etc. I'm sorry but HOW exactly would a site like that not fit under the idea of a petsite?

[myrianna]

-le sigh- All examples/descriptions have been ignored, only specific things which aren't relevant argued against. So not much point carrying on.

[Loomi]

@Avalanche, To define a simulation of ANY kind (such as flight training simulator, etc, not just simulation game):
"Simulation is the imitation of the operation of a real-world process or system over time."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulation

Pet sites do not simulate real world processes so are not connected to the sim game genre in any other way than them both being PBBG's.. Horseland (your example) simulates animals and processes that can be found in real life. Pet games like Neopets etc do not simulate real life events because the pets and fantasy settings are imaginary So I don't believe either is a sub genre of the other

[Tyrant]

I define it simply - pet sites are fantasy based, sim sites are realistically based.
Obviously there are mixtures of the two but that is how I would solidly define a pet and a sim site in the most basic terms.

Also to add to that, I think sim sites are more "focused", they don't travel to other planets, generally (though there are a few breaking out) sims focused on one town where everyone lived, whereas pet sites went across the galaxy and it was part of the norm.

I also find that pet sites seem to have a lot more staff then most sim sites, which are owned and created by one person, which I sometimes feel makes the users lose touch with the staff as there are just so many admin etc, but this is most likely due to their size; Sims are generally smaller then pet sites.

That's just the basics. Naturally there are lots breaking the norm on both sides, both are evolving with each new release so I'm sure it won't be long before there is a hybrid to break all the barriers.

[Gabby]

Well since most of Gabby's quotes are coming from my forum (and I think from my posts, actually xD), I feel I should come out of lurking long enough to clarify.

Loomi has essentially hit it on the head. Personally I believe VPS (virtual pet sites) and Sim games are both underneath the umbrella genre of Persistent Browser-Based Games (there's much discussion of PBBGs online, if one Googles). I don't think there's a huge difference between them at all -- in fact there are many games that could be considered either one, and they've been discussed often on PSU. As Loomi said, it's not a question of how they function, but their basis -- a sim game is trying its best to simulate reality, a pet site is not.

I don't think that makes either version better than the other. Cpvr and I have had discussions before about common methods of raising money for sim games, and he's made it very clear that he doesn't agree with them, which is fine. But to make a blanket statement that sim owners are out to get money, and to then in the same topic stress that sim games are less popular and poorly marketed shows an expert command of conflicting logic. If sim owners were out to get money, and pet sites are arguably the bigger money makers on the web (that fact is very clear), wouldn't we be developing pet sites instead? What's the motivation for developing a sim game if all you want to do is make money? Not much, I can tell you from experience xD

Sim games tend to be smaller not because they are somehow poorer quality, I think, but because it is a far more niche genre than pet sites. Pet sites naturally encompass a broader audience than the highly specific goals and themes of simulation games. Interestingly, the small community is one of the things almost every sim game player cites as one of their number one desired features in our games. We have many discussions about how to balance the need to bring in more users with the need to maintain the "small town" feel.

The longer I'm involved in this industry the less the distinction seems important xD I think the reason the debate continues to happen is because there are a group of players who are very much attached to sim games and sim games only, and being able to explain what that is, and define a separate place for ourselves, helps us come together as a community. We're a very interconnected and tight-knit group for the most part (as are many of you who are involved in pet sites), and having an identity is important in that regard.

But honestly I don't understand why sim games trying to define themselves is such an inflammatory topic *shrugs*

I honestly couldn't agree with this post more. The only thing I can respond to it with right now is the last line, where you are confused as to why the topic is so inflammatory. I am trying to help @cpvr understand and broaden his mind to the world of SIM games. My effort is to lessen the tension between the two, because as I said earlier, there is a Israeli-Palestinian conflict brewing between the two that I want people to face before it gets more out of hand. As I've said before, I don't have the experience to notice a trend, but I'm not ignorant to the apparent tension.

I love this community. I love pet sites. And you know what, I love SIM sites, too. There should be no reason other than the terminology to break them apart. They should be apart of this community too. I know cpvr allows them to be, but not completely, and that's what I'm really being inflammatory about. Why? Both cpvr and you, Frivi, are the two leaders of each side. Let's destroy this competition and work together. I'm all about peace. Let's bring it.

[Tyrant]

I love this community. I love pet sites. And you know what, I love SIM sites, too. There should be no reason other than the terminology to break them apart. They should be apart of this community too. I know cpvr allows them to be, but not completely, and that's what I'm really being inflammatory about. Why? Both cpvr and you, Frivi, are the two leaders of each side. Let's destroy this competition and work together. I'm all about peace. Let's bring it.

^ This. <3

I'm not even sure why there is a divide, and If I'm being perfectly honest some of the assumptions that cpvr has made on this thread are quite offensive and only fuel the divide rather then help close it, as a sim owner and knowing many sim owners, I can pretty much tell you every assumption made was incorrect and if anything, a little ignorant. Someone with such influence should not be telling community members that all sim owners are money grabbing, poor advertisers with crap games which is pretty much what was said. =/
I do have an argument for each point but I don't want to fuel the fire, just point out that those comments were wrong and that this is a silly divide. We love games; everyone here loves games. What is the issue?