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Industry pushed me to quit.. ;-;

Discussion in 'Art/Writing General' started by Lolly, Jul 2, 2012.

  1. Lolly
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    Lolly Approved Artist Approved Artist VPL Member

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    I'm not sure where to put this, so feel free to move it. o3o

    I've officially quit commissions and any future positions. So basically, the entire industry except Icepets.
    There are way too many rude customers out there now, and you need to know what you're doing to artists.

    I've had people asking for refunds after it's done and paid for, I've had people tell me it's not 'my style' and I've had people muck me around; not even bothering to get back into contact after it's been made. Thanks.
    So here's a breakdown of how long I spend making graphics:
    Avatars - Between 5-15 Minutes.
    People that ask for complex avatars.. Add another 30 minutes.
    Banners - Between 1-3 Hours.
    I have days where nothing works.
    Layouts - Between 1-2 Days.
    24/7, minus 9 hours sleep.

    So this is under minimum wage, right?
    $6 for a banner that can take up to 3 hours
    I'm told to change it.
    Add another 30 minutes.
    You want a refund?
    Sweet, can I have 3 hours of my life back? No? No refund.
    You won't reply?
    Fine, I'll spend the next 2 weeks mailing you everyday.

    Honestly, it's just taken all my passion away. The thought of graphics makes me cringe.
    All I can think of is everyone's complaints.. because honestly.. Over 50% of commissions this year have been people complaining.
    What the heck happened to this industry?
    When did all the buyers start to tear into artists.. It's you that is making us leave. You're the reason there aren't as many of us around.
    I'm totally sick of being treated like this, so I did quit. All my passion was sucked out of me and I cannot see me ever opening up photoshop again.

    It literally sends me to tears now.
    So to all the buyers out there, watch what you say!!

    Has anyone else been feeling this way? >.>
  2. que
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    que Approved Artist Approved Artist VPL Supporter VPL Member

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    I've quit commissions, too!

    I agree, @Lolly. I admit that a lot of the issues I brought on myself... but a majority were not, and made me HATE doing pet site art.
    (I ended up providing mediocre service to even my best clients because of stress from others).

    The stress from this stuff brought me to both tears, AND a mental breakdown.

    Trust me when I say this break I've taken has been just effin' fabulous.
    Sometimes it's great to take a step back from doing even the things you love.

    I didn't want to hate graphic design, but it was getting to that point.

    I've dealt with a lot of people who think it's easy to do what we do and think we all have tough skin and MUST do what they say because they are the customer (which is 100% wrong).

    Take a break, girl. You deserve it.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2013
  3. Lewis
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    Lewis Moderator Moderator Programming Moderator Senior Programmer Pet Game Owner VPL Supporter

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    Not all buyers are like that. How can you blame the whole industry?
    Gabby likes this.
  4. SpunkiSpirou
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    SpunkiSpirou Banned Pet Game Owner Banned

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    Welcome to my world.

    I don't like to complain, if someone does something for me I mostly go along with it, even if I don't like it, based on my experiences, I won't put someone else down.
  5. bamboo123
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    bamboo123 Approved Artist Approved Artist VPL Member

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    @Lolly , *pats* Hope you feel better soon :D Normally, when I feel like that, I stuff myself with raisins, fruits and candies :) Doing exercise also helps xD Talk to someone, it'll help too :) *pats* Nothing is perfect in this world, things like this is bound to happen :D But then again, life still goes on :D No matter how hurt you feel now, it'll eventually heal, if you want it to :D It might seem easy for me to say but hard to do it, but seriously, it's not that hard :D (( sorry if I sound weird / useless D: ))
    Icepets is lucky to still have you around :D
    I hope you'll consider coming back, I've always admired your graphic arts :D (( you're my role model :D seriously :D ))
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2013
  6. Dyl
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    Dyl Approved Artist Approved Artist VPL Member

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    Yeah reason I've quit doing art and anything that the industry bashes like crazy. UGH item art = epic suckiness. XD I would spend 2-3 hours on one single $2.50 item. REALLY? Because they would make me change it, change it, and change it some more.
    So now I just program for VP owners. I refuse to do art.
    Otherwise, I'm freelancing for other professional businessmen.
  7. cpvr
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    cpvr Owner and Founder Administrator

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    If I ever need some new banners - could you make them for me? When I have the funds, I'll pay $8 for a banner you can make. I'm so sorry to hear this, I didn't know things were this bad between artists and customers.:(
  8. Myztacia
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    Myztacia Web Dev Pet Game Owner VPL Supporter VPL Member

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    I've dealt with a lot of the same stuff as far as programming goes. It's why I work so heavily with contracts...when clients are like "Oh, but I wanted this functionality, too" I can say "Not in the contract, so there's an extra charge for my time"....it saves a lot of headache.
  9. Ixyra
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    Ixyra Approved Artist Approved Artist VPL Member

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    I just quit commissions too :'D
    Also I just don't think this is an industry. These are pet sites where most dont even use contracts. I think it would be an industry if most sites had copyrights, legal contracts, a legal pay-rate, and a physical building or meeting place to work in; not to mention a staff hierarchy! If any site had all of these aspects I would still be pursuing backgrounds for websites, but whenever I tell a client I charge hourly it's like the world comes crashing down. Flat rates dont pay bills and they waste my time :/ What if I charge flat rate and they want a bunch of changes that add up to something like 5 hours? That's a waste of my time! I have bills - I need to eat - I have things to pay for and a life to live!

    I think if people were more professional about treating this as a business and less of casual freelance then I think there would be less problems. I've worked for maybe two professional clients out of the hundreds. I find it disappointing :( But - I'm just preaching to the choir haha. Hopefully we can all find better ways of an income without having to deal with this atmosphere.

    Ps - Not all clients are terrible so if you were good to me and paid me on time and gave input then this is not for you potential-previous-client-reading-this :p
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2012
    Dyl likes this.
  10. Avalanche
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    Avalanche Supporter VPL Supporter

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    I've had some issues with this programming but not a lot. *hugs* I sorry Lolly. It'll get better though, maybe we can poke you to get your passion back? ;-;
  11. bird
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    bird Approved Artist Approved Artist VPL Member

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    I feel where you're coming from, seriously (i'm looking at you, item art), but honestly though, I feel that this kind of work for us is a labour of love. We work partly for the money, yes, but I also strive to stretch myself and draw things I wouldn't normally, especially in items and npcs, and that advances my own art. I'm sure it's similar with graphics where you can think of new ways to make more interesting works.

    Taking a break is a fantastic idea; like Bexxy said, it's really important to step back and take a breath, glance around at what other people are doing.

    I constantly think about readjusting my prices, making them higher. If potential buyers truly want my art and are serious about creating an eye-catching environment for their site, then they will work well with me and understand my needs. If not, they're just another wishy-washy pet site owner who thinks we don't spend 2-5 hours every day (more for others, I'm sure), doing what they used to love.

    tl;dr i know how that feels bro 8(
  12. Lewis
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    Lewis Moderator Moderator Programming Moderator Senior Programmer Pet Game Owner VPL Supporter

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    So how much does everyone think item art should cost? I always thought $2 to $5 was fair.
  13. bird
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    bird Approved Artist Approved Artist VPL Member

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    I think the fastest I can draw an item without reference, from start to finish, is about 30mins. I'm not sure about other people, but lol I've never been paid 5$ for items but that'd be DAMN NICE. *U* Because then in an hour I would be making $10, closer to my minimum wage. But Items also make me want to jump off a cliff after the 5th one, so, I have to do them in small waves. xD
  14. Nebula
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    Nebula Approved Game Owner Pet Game Owner VPL Member

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    ^^ This! ^^

    For me it's a must to have a contract, both when I'm the one creating and when I'm the one ordering. Contracts are a lifesaver. They protect both the bidder and the artist and make sure both parties have a written agreement where they can point to when things change. When I'm ordering something and halfway through the process want to change it, I find it completely normal that I have to pay extra, since I'm putting more work on the shoulders of the artist. When being an artist, I know I have to deliver on time or else see my paycheck cut short. Contracts really make it a lot easier and I would advice everyone in this business to use them.

    Btw... you're now talking about bidders who don't hold up their end of the bargain. How about artists who don't deliver on time? There quite a lot of those as well and as an admin of a sim and an owner of a sim in progress it's one of my major daily frustrations.
  15. Elz
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    Elz Approved Artist Approved Artist VPL Member

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    Ideally it should depend on the time spent, I currently charge $6 and upwards - I spend around 30 minutes per item so it evens out at about minimum wage for my area.

    And @Lolly - I'm sorry you've had so many bad experiences. I think the ideal solution is set a price, ask for it up front, and offer only one edit before you animate, or something. I dont do graphics myself, but I used to play around with banners and animating them. It takes a lot of time, and is very tedious if you have to re-do any part of it. :c So, tbh, if you can offer enough examples of your work, then the buyer knows what they're going to get. Multiple edits is ridiculous for something worth so little. I usually show sketches of my items, if they like them, I complete them. Its never any more work than that and it shouldnt be for graphics either.
    @bird - I know your pain. I hate doing constant stream of items D:
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2013
  16. SpottyWolf
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    SpottyWolf Approved Artist Approved Artist VPL Member

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    I sort of agree. There's a reason why I haven't added a thread for even simple sketches. The main one is the fact that there are so many out there that do not appreciate the work that goes into one making art/graphics. Maybe they don't understand exactly, but even if you did explain and they were still rude? Well that's not your fault. If you showed examples of your work and they agreed to the style that you do, then its on them. I hate it when people back out the last minute all because they 'didn't like your style.' I wish you luck hun!
    Corzeir likes this.
  17. Micky
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    Micky Always online, ping me! [Mythflow] Moderator Approved Artist VPL Supporter VPL Member

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    I've been taking a break from doing digital art because I don't find it worth my time to do them and get paid so little. I find that as I crank out art over and over again (sometimes the same item concepts) I lose interest and passion. That's why I don't offer banners or avatars separately, and that my main services are web designs. (Mostly packages from 50$ and onwards). I guess I'm in the minority because all my clients so far on VPL have been exceptionally friendly and understanding! II'm sorry that you have to go through this. :s
  18. Andou
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    Andou Approved Artist Approved Artist VPL Member

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    Unfortunately, this is what you will experience in the real world. If you think that people on the interwebs are being rude now, wait until you actually go out there to do some real design work. I feel that we have it easy since clients don't get to see us (after all we mostly communicate via IM/EMail) or pester us with phone calls asking how the project is doing or even calls in the middle of the night where clients ask you to change a part in the design (this actually happened to my mentor, hilarious though LOL).

    That being said, I know rude comments and negativity can bring you down so much and it affects the way you work and your passion, but don't let it get to you.

    Take a break, take a breather. :)
    Joy, Loomi, Elz and 1 other person like this.
  19. que
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    que Approved Artist Approved Artist VPL Supporter VPL Member

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    Actually, @Andou- a majority of website owners and commissioners here have no idea how to be professional or how to conduct a proper commission.

    I have a much easier time dealing with my "off the interwebs" commissioners than I have conducting a transaction with members from here.
    It's not the same for everyone, as some of the people here ARE professional... but at LEAST 75% are not.

    At any rate, the "real world" offers "real world" wages, unlike VPL. At least you have the comfort in knowing you're being fairly paid for your time and work.
    The things many have to put up with to earn $2.50 is absolutely ridiculous and should not be tolerated. How one chooses to deal, however, is up to the person under the stress.

    Basically, commissions are conducted much more professionally when it's for a business and not just a pet site owned by some 18-20 year old kid. You deal with phone calls, meetings, not just PMs.
    You get to know your client. They usually have done it before. Maybe 1:25 of my clients are horrible nightmares, offline. The ratio here is much higher.

    Here, you are given a list of things to do and a style to do with not much else to work with.
    If you do it wrong, you're the one to blame. It's sorta silly.

    Of course, it's not all the client's fault (usually). There can be mis-communications causing disappointment. How an artist chooses to deal with such is up to them.

    If you get pushed to a breaking point like this, though- it's time for a break.
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2013
  20. Andou
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    Andou Approved Artist Approved Artist VPL Member

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    Bexxy, I agree completely. I am just stating that I've had my fair share of negativity in the real world and that (in my previous experiences) it is harsher than online. xD;

    With my commissioners here, my experience have been very good so far but I understand that there are cases where people might be less compliant than others. o o;
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