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  1. According to the NYPD
    Deputy Commissioner of Public Information,​
    Paul Browne, when questioned about the legality of women going topless in New York:

    "The state's highest court established long ago that women have the same right as men to appear topless in public."

    Thank you @kami for the video:

    Apparently this has been legal in New York since 1992 (provided women are not using their breasts for commerce.)

    I'd like to hear your opinions on this. I personally bip and beep with happiness knowing that at least some part of America is embracing this idea of equality, even if I didn't know about it until today. You learn new things all the time and I'm happy to have been enlightened. I hope that other states adapt similar policies.

    For those of you who are concerned and have not watched the video or done any googling, the woman who has prompted my posting has not reported any cases of sexual harassment. I will hold off on any comments regarding my opinions on women's breasts and sexuality for the moment.
  2. I don't see any problem with revealing breasts but it's not something I'd like to see in public :U
    Equality is great, as long as it's not being mistreated (it's not, in this case!)

    So kudos to the women there!
    I have really no different opinion about this matter so yeah.
  3. That...That is just so awesome.
    I never knew about that and I live in New York x'D. Learn something new everyday :3.
  4. ok so i guess I'll be the voice of reason...

    I mean I'm all for equality and women's rights... you know power to the women and all that. And hey, I'm a cool dude, I'm all for girls walking around topless. That is just a college boy's dream come true... but I mean let's state the obvious. If you walk around topless, you're just asking for some sexual predator, rapist, or molestor to try his luck. I mean its like putting a giant target on yourself and walking around the world like it's a big happy magical cartoony place where the sun has a big smile and the flowers are all dancing around singing songs. I think this woman is just making herself into bait for some stalker to walk around with a camera. I just hope she doesn't end up found buried in a ditch somewhere.
  5. #5 Gabby, May 22, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2013
  6. @GabbyGabby thats what I was saying. I totally agree.
    #6 Toongears, May 22, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2013
  7. This is where I'll make my first statement regarding the issue of sexuality: While it may be perceived as a "risk," if women's breasts weren't so oversexualized in the first place, there would not be such an issue with it. The way that American society views breasts as sexual objects is the reason why they are seen in that light; by making them more "normal" in the sense of them being natural parts of our bodies, I believe that this can be reversed and that people will become more aware of the fact that breasts do not have to be sexual.

    As far as "asking for some sexual predator, rapist, or molester to try his luck," this can happen in any situation, regardless of whether or not you are topless. The majority of rapists do not rape for the sex, they rape for the power, and the women that they target are the ones that they deem to be the easiest to catch. It has little to nothing to do with their appearance, and when appearance is a concern, it is only for things such as: does she have a ponytail which I can easily grab, could she hurt me with the heels in her shoes, etc. And to make a statement to cover other forms of sexual harassment, I believe that a man would find it difficult to target a women who is confident enough to show her breasts in public. Again, it is a power issue: If a predator believes that he can have control over his victim and overpower her, or if he believes that he can "get away" with the behavior, he is likely to do it. While I will not disagree that having your breasts exposed may pose some sort of "risk," I don't think it is any different than wearing a revealing outfit. It may, in fact, be less dangerous, because it displays an amount of confidence that may correlate to confidence in other areas that would deter a sexual predator.

    I won't argue that there isn't a risk to it, and I won't argue that it won't or couldn't happen, but I doubt having a woman (or several) walk around topless is going to suddenly spur sexual predators or molesters into targeting them. If it did happen it would be in the public eye which would pose even more of a deterrent.

    Aside from all of that, I believe it is the woman's choice whether or not she wants to take that "risk," and that any women could take a similar risk by wearing a short skirt or a revealing top. I hope that this woman's actions help to deobjectify women's bodies so that such "risks" are actually lessened. The sooner we can understand that breasts, butts, legs, are just a body parts, not sex objects, the sooner we can openly embrace it. If no steps are taken, it will only continue.

    EDIT: @Gabby , same post as above.
    #7 Drea, May 22, 2012
    Last edited: May 22, 2012
  8. So by that reasoning, if you walk around making stupid remarks, you're just asking for some zealously anti-stupid-people zealot, vigilante, or sociopath to come and incapacitate you to the point of being incapable of making stupid remarks?

    Anyone who makes a "they're asking for it" argument as if it were valid, should ask themselves: "would it be right for another person to say that I was asking for it by saying what I just said if someone flies into a fit of murderous rage at my remarks and beats me to a bloody pulp for what's coming out of my mouth right now?" No? The only difference is that one's maybe more statistically likely than the other, because rape's pretty tied to primitive hardwired impulses while anger at perceived stupidity is rarely found in people prone to anger-induced violence.

    If you cannot establish a logical reason for why a right shouldn't exist, or why it's unethical to exercise it in a given situation, then exercising that right is not asking for anything, any more than you propagating a fallacious line of reasoning that countless rape/abuse/molestation victims have suffered due to and countless a-holes have used to either emotionally wound others or to justify their own repugnant actions to themselves.
  9. Just remembered this after posting the above: I assure you there are males in college years (and high, and middle, and really all of their lives) who don't spend their time dreaming about things so... base, I guess, is the right word? Maybe it's just me, but I fantasize about things like reforming the education system to teach kids cognitive skills like universal empathy/sympathy/compassion from an early age, reforming penal systems into more ethical institutions focused on fixing people using what we know of psychology and cognitive behavior therapy, etc. ...Okay, that is just me, but I resent the supposition that every male of my age group is so shallow in what their thought processes priorize. (And in my experience even most college kids aren't that sex-focused, and for those in committed relationships, jealousy and possessiveness would likely kick in far more than the 'heh, breasts' thing.)

    Furthermore, I think Drea dissected the other flaw in your premise well too: most rapists rape / molestors molest, etc, because deepseated personality predispositions cause them to care about things like harming their victims. Now, from what I recall there are four categorized types of rapists, and only one of those is about power, and if I recall correctly the majority are actually driven by an internalized anger that's directed/vented at women, and the rape is a particularly effective way of expressing that anger in a hurting/harming, etc. Honestly, all 'main' rapists aren't motivated by jack shit except their own internal feelings about women and/or people.

    Which is why my argument against the 'asking for it' notion is more victim-facing. Yes, there are some rapists, who aren't in the psycholoigically-predisposed-to-rape category, and for those that argument might make a difference if they stop and think about their actions. If the endeavor to 'treat' rape-predispositions is ever undertaken by humanity, the 'asking for it' notion would probably become more of a pressing problem because then it would kick in as a reason to justify one's rape urges, but it's almost never the driving cause. The worse damage from the 'asking for it' argument is to the people who get raped/abused/molested because they either wanted to express themselves through their clothing or lack there of or, dear god, succumed to the human urge to appear attractive (attractive as defined by social norm, which currently equates to revealing clothing for women).

    In the meantime, Drea, one thing about your second post in this thread: typically when people say the 'the women are asking for it' arguments, they extend that reasoning to revealing clothes too, so that example doesn't really get to the unerlying reasoning flaw of these arguments (that no one's asking for jack shit - even if they understand a risk increases due to their actions, it's still utterly irrelevant to the wrongness of what was done to them and the undeservedness of them becoming a victim to it.
  10. Of course; I wasn't going to try and initially argue any further than what I'd already brought up unless/until there was a response to the first statement. I was going to try and go "halfway," so to speak, unless I otherwise thought it was more "needed".... You basically covered anything that I'd say regarding that matter but had you not I most certainly would have chimed in eventually (provided there was a response that called for it.)

    Guess I felt like just covering that one issue first and foremost, and tackling the second aspect of it later if the need arose. I'd hoped that by providing a less provocative argument (at least one that I believed to be so) I'd be less likely to alienate others; I always seem to do that here. *bip*

    Having said that, I appreciate your contribution to the discussion... as I always do. I'll consider my tactfulness for future postings.
  11. @DreaDrea and @Mentalist TraceurMentalist Traceur : i understand the point she is trying to make, and i also understand the points you are trying to emphasize. I just have a more cynical point of view on this manner. A woman protesting her right that she is allowed to walk around topless in NYC is "asking for it". I am not trying to raise an argument that I think what she is doing is wrong, I'm trying to say that what she is doing is in fact a huge way to gain unnecessary attention, good and bad. In this particular manner, more so the latter. I'm completely aware that rapists and molesters will still rape and molest regardless if she was fat, skinny, attractive, ugly, dressed or clothed. THAT IS THE POINT! This world is totally disgusting and unsafe.

    A topless woman, regardless if you believe boobs are body parts and not sex objects, is going to gain a lot more attention then the fully clothed woman or a woman in a bikini. If a woman is wearing clothes and a woman is topless, who is the pervert more likely to address? She is walking around the streets of new york, and your telling me that if she happens to stop by that disgusting pervert on the street corner, or dirty hobo looking for someone who looks "friendly", he's NOT going to want to let his hands "accidentally" grab a hold of her goodies MORE SO then if she was clothed. I'm more so concerned with the safety of this and all other women in the world, and though what she is doing is "honorable" in some fashion, it is still dangerous.

    The world is a really sick place, and as much as we would like to think we can change the views of society and make this world a better place with equality for all, its not gonna start with this woman walking around topless. There's already too much filth in the world commanding priority over this woman's so-called protest. The fact that she is using a law from 1992 to make a point seems more like a way for her to just gain unnecessary attention.

    Comparing someone walking around topless in public and a protestor ranting views that could upset someone are two completely different things. I'm not looking at what this woman is doing from a protesting stand point, because I protest and volunteer at my school for countless events. I'm looking at it from a normal person's stand point. I don't even see the similarities in someone walking around making stupid remarks and someone walking around topless.

    To raise an even more interesting debate, if this woman was 16 or 17, I'm sure everyone would be up right outraged and appalled. Or how about if it was a woman who was exercising her right to walk around topless at an elementary school playground?

    What I will say I am very proud of and will applaud, whether i believe it was her actual intentions or not, is that she is taking a more radical approach to get her message across. We need more courageous people like this in our society, who want to make a difference, but there are other more organized, structured, and frankily safer, ways to go about this. I would hope that I could live in a world where women aren't objectified and boobs aren't viewed as sex objects, but prostutition, pornography, and strip clubs, aren't going to be shutting down anytime soon. This woman appears to be making a stunt for attention more so then to "bring awareness" even though she is doing a good job at bringing awareness to a law not very many people are aware of.
    #11 Toongears, May 22, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2013
  12. I knew that but have yet to see anyone really exercise the right. I live in NY and just wouldn't do it period. The "they're asking for it" argument is a load of crap. Shit happens to people on a daily basis just because other people want to do it and going topless shouldn't be taken as an invitation but freedom of expression or noted as equality. In the world we live in, that's a misconception and I agree with some of the posts above me.
  13. Certain things I agree with, and certain things I don't. I don't think it's okay that our society over sensitizes a woman's breasts. If I had to make a decision, I'd prefer it to be different. However, it's an age old tradition we cannot escape. Some scientific evidence even suggests that a woman's breasts were intended to stimulate a man's brain in order to "get them in the mood" (I can provide peer review articles of these conclusions). In conclusion, if it's a biological hardwiring, there is only so much society can do. So maybe, in this regard, a woman remaining clothed will help better protect her. I have large breasts, and I've already been the target of sexual assaults even being clothed. I don't know if it's something you can control through the media/society. That's my only argument to your point, really. I wish we lived in a perfect world where society didn't exemplify a woman's breasts, but we do, and it's a traditional fact.

    I am not a feminist. I am not a 'masculinist' (I just made up that word..). I'm an equalist. I would love seeing a society where women are actually treated like men, but we just don't live in a perfect world. Never have, never will.

    And, on the same vein, who is to say a man isn't victimized for being shirtless either? Some buff woman might feel provoked to rape a man because of her strong sexual attraction to his nudity. It goes both ways--doesn't it?
  14. @GabbyGabby - You're not a feminist? You do know that "feminism" is just the belief that woman should be equal to men. It doesn't mean "we think women are better!" like people seem to believe, for some reason.
    #14 Kiara, May 22, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2013
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Kiara, I am fully aware of what feminism means. And no, I certainly do not think all feminists are "we think women are better!1!!" However, there is a large stigma behind most of the feminists I've met and spoken to.
    A lot of them have taken something out of what's really nothing. Feminists are usually a lot more defensive over their cause and blind to everyone else. I'm not saying all. I'm saying most.

    If you would allow me to use an example--


    You see the female sex symbol, but no male sex symbol.

    A feminist, from my observations, has those exact traits ^^^
    They display their views and their perspectives in struggling effort to advance their movement.
    However, they leave out the fact it happens to a male too.

    I'm using gender equality in a different context.

    For instance, that video actually annoyed me because they censored the woman's breasts, but not the man's.
    Sure, censor the woman's breasts, but censor the man's too.
    They both have tits. What's the difference?
    I think of every female that has had something happen to them, a male has experienced a similar experience.
    If society didn't place such a pressure on the expectations of both separately--instead the same expectations for both... That's equality. Not feminism.
    #15 Gabby, May 22, 2012
    Last edited: May 22, 2012
  16. It just seems silly to me to say you're not a feminist when you believe in gender equality -- which is what it basically means. Just because the stereotypes are negative and all that doesn't change the meaning, and I just don't understand why people think they're above others for saying things like "I'm not a feminist even though I support equal rights". You are, by definition, a feminist.

    The only way to stop the bad stereotypes is by proving them wrong and going against them, not by accepting them and making it worse.
    • Like Like x 1
  17. o_O; Who said I completely disagreed with feminism?

    I don't. I never said I did. Maybe some of my general views are shared, but certainly not everything feminism stands for I agree with. I don't agree with every single thing a feminist has said. That's practically worship. I am, in no regard, in worship to a cause. Agreements and disagreements are a natural part of being a human being. You can't expect to agree with everything. And that's exactly why I don't consider myself a feminists. Feminism, to a very large extent, has a very one sided defensive view on the issues they talk about. I've attended a lot of feminism awareness seminars at the college I go to. The entire time I sat there they did not once mention a man. The question was asked, and they quickly addressed the question and dived right back into their core point--defending the woman. I can't agree, or consider myself a part of something that claims equality and doesn't take the proper steps to make it a reality. I don't agree with their movement because of personal reasons. I personally feel it's only going to generate more hate.

    Communication is key, and I do not feel feminism communicates the issues the way they should be. I don't really understand why this is a problem for you. I am educated as to what feminism is and I understand the stigma behind most feminist women. I disagree with them because I don't perceive my ideas the same way they do. That's the extent of it. It's not ignorance, it's not judgmental, I just don't relate to everything they say.
  18. @GabbyGabby : I agree that the matter does deal with a certain amount of biologically-driven need and desire, but also believe that people are capable of self-control. While men may be sexually stimulated by seeing breasts, they are also stimulated by several other things, as are women. A cute butt, strong shoulders... there are many things that women and men view as being attractive on a biological level, but I don't think it means that we should just hide them, especially not just for a single sex.

    Additionally, while it may be traditional in our society, there are many other cultures which have no visible problems with viewing breasts first as body parts and second as sexual objects. Nudists and "less-developed" (I hate using this term but don't know how to otherwise demonstrate who I am referring to) groups of people seem to get along just fine. This suggests the idea that it is the traditional belief that holds strong in our society that produces the problem in the first place, and societies are capable of change. Gay and lesbian rights, once taboo subjects, have been openly embraced. I see no reason for women's breasts to be any different, it just has to be given the chance to be changed.

    Also, while feminism may have a negative connotation, it literally is "The advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men." So you would technically be a feminist if you believe women should be treated the same as men. While we don't live in a perfect world and really never will, we can at least try, right?

    Of course men can be victimized too, it does go both ways... though I still disagree that rape is based on attraction and sex. Rape is based on power and control, in most cases... though I'm sure a fair share of men have experienced sexual harassment, just as women have. So, really, if both would experience it, why protect one more than the other (or, rather, why allow one to be exposed and not the other?) It doesn't have to be a buff woman, either, it could be any type of man or woman.

    @ToongearsToongears : Asking for what, then, exactly? If Mentalist's points regarding the fact that nobody "asks" to be raped/assaulted/etc by displaying a certain behavior (I'm sure you can read his post again if you don't know what I'm talking about) are not what you're referring to, then are you saying they are asking for attention? If you are indeed referring to rape/assault/etc then I'll direct you to his post again as I'd just be repeating what he's saying.

    A topless woman will, yes, gain more attention because it is something that is not seen in our society very often. A pervert who likes looking at breasts will look at naked ones rather than clothed ones, yes. And such a pervert may even imagine grabbing onto those puppies. This will happen with or without clothing, though, and not just with breasts. A man who likes butts will think of grabbing a naked butt, a clothed butt, whatever kind of butt, as long as it is attractive. If I like big muscly shoulders I am going to think about them whether the dude who has them is clothed or unclothed. It isn't wrong to have the thought, it is wrong to act upon it. Having the thought is natural. Acting on it is when it becomes an issue of rights.

    As for the world not being changed by this woman walking around topless, says who? If it can have an impact on one single person, that is changing the world. If that one person then begins to have different ideals about equality, about bodies, it will not stay to themselves. It has already spread to you, and me, and everyone else in this thread, in some way, because we are all expressing our opinions on the matter. If it did not have an impact, we would not be arguing our points as we are doing now. Change doesn't happen all at once, it happens in steps. This woman is making one single step. We cannot expect a change overnight, but as long as it has some kind of impact, it matters, and it can grow.

    The law also dictates that it is only "anywhere where a man may go shirtless" or something to that extent. So, if a man can go shirtless at an elementary school, why can't a woman? Again this returns to the argument about the sexualization of breasts so I won't repeat myself.

    I agree that we need more courageous activists in this country, because without them there will be no change, but it seems that until people take more visible, shocking action (like walking around topless,) our government will shoo it away. If this wasn't the case, it'd already be legal in all 50 states. Small steps to big change... if it's what it'll take to wake people up.

    EDIT: I didn't read the last few posts by Gabby before posting this.
    #18 Drea, May 22, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 16, 2013
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  19. My parents don't agree with everything a republican says, but they are still republican. Does anyone ever agree with everything everyone has said in a particular group?
  20. It's not even that. Feminism doesn't have to be some big group thing, or some kind of heavy belief system. It's just plain and simply the idea that women are equal to men. That's what being a feminist is and if you believe that, you are a feminist.

    That's like... being gay, but saying you're not gay because you went to a LGBT group and "didn't like the way they communicated". It doesn't make you any less gay because you didn't agree with them. You don't have to agree with every gay person to be gay. You don't have to agree with every feminist to be a feminist. It's not like a cult following religion thing.
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