Reasons Why Not to Join Celendria (as user or staff)

[kami]

This list has been written by multiple former Celendria staff members who, at one time or another, remained active both as staff in their respective positions and as players on the main site. It includes information pulled from our own experiences/observations and the experiences of other staff. This list was first started months ago, and was always intended to be public unless drastic changes for the better occurred among the offending staff. We release it now because the problems listed here have gone on long enough, and if anything the situation has gotten worse. We feel it necessary to post this to inform current and potential users and staff of the site what really goes on.

1. Lack of user input
- User input often not acknowledged (or even recognized)
- Input ignored/pushed aside (not important enough, not enough resources, etc)
- Users sometimes not given the chance to explain/validate reason for input
- User input seemingly not recorded as it is often forgotten
- Criticism is met with a “PM us if you have a problem with this” approach, which prevents users and staff from seeing the scope of any problem.



2. No accurate moderation (Mods break the rules or don’t know/understand them)
- Abuse of other members (Lilly and Rae vs Pirate)
- Rules are enforced wrongly or inconsistently.
- Staff enforce “rules” which are never stated in the Rules or ToS. Typical staff defence is that a rule is should’ve been self-evident, even in cases where this isn’t reasonable.
--- No auto-playing videos in profiles was spontaneously instated as a rule - it has not been added to the rules page since.
--- Moderators have for months as of this writing told users that discussing buying/selling between users in the shoutbox was against the rules. This was also never part of the actual site rules. (The Celendria rules prohibit advertising in the shoutbox, but any and all discussion where concepts of buying/selling from other users arose has been stopped.)
--- Users have been banned for actions that are not stated as against the rules anywhere at the time of their bans. While some of those rules have then been added to the rules formally afterwords, users are not always given any chance or warning to stop the behavior in question.

3. Too Many Excuses (used as deflection, getting out of hard work, etc)
- Lilly deflecting criticism that she moderates inaccurately: “Not enough mods on...only me”
- Ray - Can’t work on the site bugs because Veo left, when there are two other coders on the site (now three).

4. Art department = ALL OVER THE PLACE
- There appears to be no set style on Celendria
- Correct anatomy and lighting is often entirely ignored
- Lack of consistent feedback by high staff members (those who have power to accept/reject art)
- Lack of consistency in critiques and acceptance - the artwork of certain artists receives virtually automatic approval; other artists are regularly criticised on minutia that makes no perceptible difference - this correlates with whether or not the Art Head likes you.
--- Lines. Must. Be. TAPERED. Doesn’t matter if a human being can’t physically see the difference on the final result whether they are or not.
--- Some artists’ threads go ignored for days before approval/disapproval
--- Some staff not interns when they should be, some staff not getting appropriate corrections/direction, some users not getting ANY correction, some getting way too much
- Indecisiveness and lack of direction from main staff when direction is desired.
- Working not fun or rewarding except for payment, even then not entirely worth it considering time spent waiting for approval/fixing/etc (The lowering of payment for art a couple months back didn’t help)
- The position of “intern” is indefinite and vague. No stated guidelines for the basis for making somebody an intern vs a normal staff member, or for promotion from intern to staff. The stated intent is to improve the artist and teach them to match Celendria’s style, but given the current Art Head’s understanding of ‘style’, that could be anything.
- Head Artist does not understand certain art concepts, yet uses them as a basis for rejecting art.

5. Clique (This is rapidly fading due to the recent development of issue 6)
- There is a clique-level unity among certain staff in authority that correlates with unwillingness to see wrong in each other and to fix problems caused by their wrong doings
- Staff is stratified as a result, and staff with power are unyielding to criticism (some that seemed more receptive of criticism are less active now).
- Those outside (staff and users) feel alienated and ignored/dismissed, because expressed disagreement yields little if any results.
- Numerous new staff and users have reported feeling very intimidated by existing staff.
- When the last Programming Head quit, they wanted a couple days to tidy up some bugs and code; instead their access was revoked instantly and some of the staff verbally harassed and degraded said former staff member afterwords.

6. Staff Inactivity/Detachment
- A number of core staff - owners of the site itself - have been absent or present only marginally as of late.
- Current programmers were largely inactive until a volunteer programmer was allowed in who started doing their jobs for them for free.
- The only staff member whose position was dedicated to user/public relations went inactive a month or two ago as well.

7. Jobs (in general, not just Art department)
- Little if any detail given on job assignments in ALL sections
- Priority lists not updated, or assigned to anyone, duplicate work by multiple people highly possible
- No clear written guidelines of what is expected, what acceptable absences are before termination, etc.
- Staff have been removed either with no forewarning, or without being informed at all.
- Some staff are not removed over prolonged periods of inactivity even when others are removed after far less
- Payments are not allowed to be discussed publicly - an artist is not allowed to state what they are paid for a given item on the staff forums. This is done to “protect the privacy” of the staff, which doesn’t make a smidgen of logical sense.

8. The Site
- Site bugs are left unfixed for long periods of time, while features are changed/added around them.
- Site was totally dead in the past when Ixy was not online
--- Month span of time where only lottery and charity updated when she was gone
- Site was totally dead recently until Max (volunteer programmer) joined
- Inconsistency in site (cash shop changes, smithing changes, mining changes, etc)
--- Drastic changes, not just minor
- Cash shop prices and stats have been changed around - the effects of pet stats were changed repeatedly, but for a while users did not get stat resets for free.
--- Site wording, combined with bugs, is misleading/confusing.
- Forced rares not really forced (supposedly guaranteed 1 per hour, which is only sometimes true.)
--- Same rares appearing over and over (jewelry shop chosen more than other shops for R99?)
--- Zhang changing what Natalia needs?
--- Zhang/Salvatore paying prices completely unrelated to value of item?
--- Intimidating to new users (what to do? where to go? point of site? meaning of “just a small meal!” “just a larger meal!” “a small snack!”? Jobs to pick? How to make money?
--- Newbie guide not helpful
- Point of playing on the site? Plot? Quests? Adventure? Anything?
--- Plot not integrated fully with site
--- If one wants to know plot must force self to learn it (only in Encyclopedia and NO WHERE else)
--- Plot not mentioned by any characters
- Site ownership is vague and while formally stated, not clear in practice
--- Mutual ownership of core staff?
--- Raychul has by far funded the great majority of all of Celendria
- Ixyra acts very much as if she is in charge (Ixy basically runs the site since April and Ray have become almost completely inactive)
- Little to no knowledge of what to expect, what is being changed/updated, what is in the works of being added/removed; users “in the dark” regarding the site’s direction/updates/purpose
- Staff are planning a system-wipe of the site after beta ends, even though they had promised not to wipe the site again to the users after the last wipe

Hopefully you’ve read through all the above. While this isn’t a conventional review, we feel it is important for users and potential staff to be informed of the issues that a present in any site. We also realize that no site is without problems - the reason we are posting this is because the issues that we describe above, while minor on paper, are and have been prevalent in one form or another on this site over a long period of time. Celendria, like most petsites, is not without potential - but it has left a trail or disgruntled and hurt users and staff in its stead. From what we have seen since we started composing this list months ago, if those steering Celendria do not act to change the above, Celendria will fail - either spectacularly and with much fanfare or a slow rotting death as more and more users are alienated and leave the site.

It is also important to note that harming/destroying Celendria is not what is intended by this post. What is intended is that the truth is out and in the open, which is typically the best step towards resolving problems of any nature. At least one writer among us would still be happy to see Celendria succeed if the problems mentioned above were addressed properly. In writing this, we have done our best to stay objective and reasonable, and eliminate personal bias and feelings from the criticisms enumerated herein.

[Mentalist Traceur]

Hello, I was EpicWin on Celendria, and I wanted to openly say - yes I participated in the formulating of this post. While I was not the main party in keeping the list and the majority of the criticisms are not mine, there are quiet a few which I personally agree with. While I enjoyed Celendria at first, and have no ill will towards the site as a whole, I have seen a number of former staff members effectively shat on by certain other staff members, and behaviors from other staff which I feel are detrimental to their site as a whole. I still hope Celendria improves in that regard and would be happy to see them do well, but I do not think being silent about the points brought up herein is ethically acceptable at this point.

[Joy]

- Staff are planning a system-wipe of the site after beta ends, even though they had promised not to wipe the site again to the users after the last wipe

^ What the fact at that?

But at everything else... I'm definitely not surprised.

I know staff (I wont give names...) who have talked about people behind their backs. @Martyn , @Tom are just two example subjects of their bad mouthing.

Personally, I never had any high hopes for this site. And I wont be surprised to see it wash away within a year or less.

[Love]

These all sound like very legitimate concerns. Hopefully, they will accept this criticism and do something to fix it

[bamboo123]

- Staff are planning a system-wipe of the site after beta ends, even though they had promised not to wipe the site again to the users after the last wipe

sigh... it's the third wipe right? D:

I enjoyed Celendria, a lot in fact. But it just won't work out by having another wipe... I lost all my money in the last wipe, and after asking the staffs and making sure there's not gonna be another wipe, I started earning money again... now another one? T.T Personally, I think Celendria has wonderful arts and jobs <3 Staff fights don't bother me because they mean nothing to me? But wiping! == It's a different thing than arts / bad staffs T.T

That's my opinion btw xD

[Becca]

I think the majority of this post is actually nitpicking.

I left Celendria after they changed their rates for artists, and encouraged others to do the same. There's simply too many people working on the site, and too many temporary positions being filled. There's certainly no need for the sheer amount of workers or staff on one site with so little consistency. What I didn't feel was nessecary was to create a post spewing my hatred for this site, to the point where the entire process is scrutinized and nitpicked.

The site issues on Celendria definately need to be adressed, but I for one don't paticularly care for the navigation. The learning curve for a newbie is very, very steep, and that alone will diminish the numbers of users online. I think the moderation issue also falls under general on-site issues, also, the coding issues fall under site too. The art was a mess when I was there, and if it still is then they haven't learned that you really only need a core group of people to make a site. I do think that the situation of cliques within the site need to be adressed, as when I was there these roups were evident between staff and didn't tend to include any users.

The part where I feel it gets picky is the art. Consistency is a matter of personal opinion, and not a fact. The statement of '--- Some artists’ threads go ignored for days before approval/disapproval' is a fact, and should be adressed, but I don't agree that inconsistency with style is a bad thing. I've recently been playing Aywas, and because of how they do their customs, there's a huge lack of consistency in some areas of the site. It's not a big issue, and not all art needs to be perfect in anatomy or lighting or whatever. That's personal preference, and I feel as though you've just thrown your critisms about the actual art into the pot of your factual statements. The artists on the site may feel slightly offended if they read this, and while they might not support Celendria, it certainly affects them. I think that most artists on petsites are very good artists, and that lighting and anatomy isn't paramount by any means, neither is consistency.

The other part I disagree with is one statement in the jobs section. I feel that it's completely up to the discretion of the buyer to reveal how much each individual earns. You don't go into an office job and blurt out your wage, as it can cause tension in the workplace. I realise this is online and is set up in a forum community, but finances is only something that the site owner has to worry about.

The site will die out eventually, as there haven't been any breakthrough updates in a while. It all seems to be (Very slowly) about fixing bugs. This is due to your point about staff inactivity, and I think it's why the users will lose interest and leave. There's just nothing to do after you've done it once. As a member, my biggest concerns would be about the site. The staff issues is something that also needs to be adressed, but if the owners haven't listened to feedback or just disregard it, what use is a post?

If they can't fix a few errors on a timely schedual, can they fix an entire site?

[GGitzOle]

Sounds like they have majorrrrr issues. Who are the site owners? Have you tried contacting them about these issues and what (if any) are their responses?

[kami]

I originally sent this via PM since I figured I might as well let people post out their thoughts/opinions on the matter before I replied, but I changed my mind. So replying now:

I personally don't feel it's nitpicking, and neither do a lot of the people who worked on it (there are actually people who wanted there to be MORE than what is listed, but we left things out. There are a LOT of things that we could've said but didn't, so this is the main reason why I don't think it's nitpicking.

The ONLY reason why we stressed the consistency of art style is because Ixyra, the head artist, is so obsessed with it. (And I mean obsessed.) All art MUST be approved by her and she believes that she is only allowing art that is the same style. She often over critiques art, if not even just does it herself (either in redoing the image completely or just coloring in the lineart), to make sure things are consistent when in fact, they are not. Because she stresses it so much and makes it such a huge deal, we included it.

I feel that it's completely up to the discretion of the buyer to reveal how much each individual earns.

This falls more under Mentalist's area, but my main beef with it was that we were not ALLOWED to reveal how much we were being paid. (Least not publically. We would have to do it secretly if we wanted to.) Personally, (though this has nothing really to do with the post), I feel it's unfair to pay workers on one's site in the VP community different wages for the same work. (Some who were getting lower wages were often working harder than those who were getting more for less work.)

what use is a post?

This post isn't just for the higher up staff or even all of the staff in general, nor is this post just for the players of the site nor is it for the members/onlookers on this forum. This post was made for all of those people. If it helps Celendria (staff or otherwise), great fine, if it helps OTHER site staff and open their eyes about how issues can effect everyone, great! If it helps members understand what's going on behind the scenes, awesome.

If they can't fix a few errors on a timely schedual, can they fix an entire site?

That's for them to decide, not us.

[Mentalist Traceur]

The other part I disagree with is one statement in the jobs section. I feel that it's completely up to the discretion of the buyer to reveal how much each individual earns. You don't go into an office job and blurt out your wage, as it can cause tension in the workplace. I realise this is online and is set up in a forum community, but finances is only something that the site owner has to worry about.

Unless petsite artists are going to unionize any time soon, prohibiting public discourse over what you're getting paid is detrimental to artists' wellbeing. (I wasn't in a paid position at all, and willingly signed up knowing that, so this isn't a personal issue, just something that is pretty important in my eyes.) Actually, sociologically, American culture has this thing against being open about how much people earn, for some f'ed up reason, but now I'm tangenting. If it causes tension in the workplace, that's not good, but it can very well be causing 'tension' for perfectly valid reasons (unfair pay distribution for equal/unequal work, etc).

But the main issue for me is that if people want to state what they're getting publicly, that's their prerogative, and the reasoning I saw repeatedly stated on Cele against it was "protecting privacy" - which is like saying you're protecting my privacy by not letting me tell people if I have a headache or not - if I wanted it to stay private, I'd not share it publicly, and if I do want to share it publicly, it's not protecting privacy.

And if I recall correctly this was invoked to clamp down on discourse about fairness of pay / pay policy changes at least once, but I'll admit I don't recall for sure at this point. Also, it was all discussion of artist payments - so if two or more artists had discussed their payments in private, saw some injustice and wanted to complain about it, it wouldn't have been allowed 'openly' (even openly in the sense of posted in the staff forum). And just like any other public inhibition on criticism, that almost always leads to less ethical consequences in the long run.

Sounds like they have majorrrrr issues. Who are the site owners? Have you tried contacting them about these issues and what (if any) are their responses?

As one of the points says, site ownership is, officially, split up among the "core" staff. This includes Raychul, April, Ixyra, I believe Kevin, and I think maybe one or two more people.

Out of the ones I listed, Raychul and April aren't that active, Kevin still goes on the Celendria website itself, but from what I know he hasn't been doing much in his public-relations staff capacity as of late.

Now, to answer your second point. When I was let go as writer I told Raychul that a number of staff actions/policies have been bothering me, and that if she wanted to know what they were, she was welcome to ask me for details. She never responded. The problems with the art department, and the Art Head (Ixyra), were blatantly out in the open in the staff forum over the period of months. There were at least a couple of threads where numerous other staff openly stated opposition or disagreement with how she was acting. She hasn't changed how she behaves though (I suppose she hasn't fired anyone completely out of the blue like she did one of the staff months ago, which caused quite an uproar internally, thanks largely to Kami being proactive in calling her shit, but other than that...). Since she's 'core' staff though, she can only be removed by a vote among all core staff, and other than getting kicked out, there isn't much else by way of repercussions that can happen. Raychul also seems to support her over a number of other staff, based on what I've heard from some of the other ex-staff, so that's that.

I personally have also sent my opinions regarding moderating policy flaws to one of the moderators, @Raelynn . I told her the buy/sell shoutbox discussion rule was A. not in the site rules at all B. being applied in a trigger-happy manner to all casual discussion and C. was not bringing any logical benefit to the site itself even if it was a rule, even if made official. Her response was that even if it's not in the rules she'd still continue to enforce it and all user warnings/penalties for infractions against it would stay valid because it was 'common sense'. So unless something has gone on internally in response to this, that hasn't gone anywhere. (I don't actually remember if there is a core staff member officially in charge of moderators.)

[Joy]

I'm a little confused... why don't they just make the unofficial rules official?

Common sense would be making rules official so people know what not to do.